By Steve KrakauerThis week’s BCC Interview is with Billy Bush, the host of “Extra.” Bush has a unique vantage point as a media observer – having been in the media for decades in a variety of capacities (in addition to being related to a former president or two).
Bush and I emailed this week about President Trump (and the circumstances which have connected he and Trump in the public consciousness), Bush’s (and Trump’s) former home NBC, social media and celebrity culture and a lot more. And then, with all BCC Interviews, I published it in full, below. Check out past BCC Interviews with Fox News’ Greg Gutfeld or Ben Smith of the New York Times, and subscribe to Fourth Watch here. Read the full interview below…
From: Steve Krakauer
To: Billy Bush
Hey Billy-
Thanks for doing this – really enjoy your perspective.
I wanted to start with culture in 2020. I’ve been reluctant to use terms like “cancel culture,” because I think what’s happening now is even broader and more encompassing than that. I’m curious your take on the way shows like “Live PD” or “Cops” are immediately removed from air, in the wake of the social justice protests. The boycotts of advertisers. There seems to be this sense now that it’s not just about not liking something, that thing must be destroyed. Or the way some top editors and executives are pushed out over a “climate” or a series of microaggressions. What do you make of this moment we’re in in America – our current cultural climate?
I, personally, think there’s been a lot that’s a reaction to Trump’s election four years ago. In some ways, the reaction to Trump has been a great thing – taking whispers about Harvey Weinstein and moving him from the previous column of untouchable status to prison. I’d argue you could make this same case about Jeffrey Epstein too – how connected he was to powerful forces in media and Hollywood, and then, no longer protected. In other ways – I wonder about the overreaction in some instances. You may know this ‘broad brush’ cancelation better than most, after your own high profile firing from NBC four years ago. What was it like to be caught up in that moment, as, essentially a bystander?
And feel free to throw any questions my way…
Thanks
From: Billy Bush
To: Steve Krakauer
Hey Steve
There’s a lot here. First on ‘Cops’ and ‘Live PD’, I have never watched more than a clip of either, so personally I won’t miss them. I like more of a peaceful watch. But I think what you’re angling at is our current state of discourse…as in there isn’t enough. In my view too many decisions made by entertainment executives are based more upon the mitigation of fallout than deeply held belief. Not all of course. But a TV exec’s worst nightmare is waking up on the wrong end of a gone viral tweet storm…as light footed as it might be. And truthfully as a percentage of 340 million Americans, how large is the lobby of truly outraged people against Goya beans or Soul Cycle? My guess is not huge.
That said, the IDEA that we watch what we say more closely is positive. The deeper consideration of those who’ve been historically marginalized is just. This is America, it should be accessible to all.
But back to what’s being called ‘cancel culture’, yes I’m familiar with it…when those who’ve erred, misspoken or screwed up own up to their mistake, I think it’s best we listen, accept and embrace them. Forgiveness best serves the forgiver…acceptance the accepter. It softens the lining of the heart.
We all know it’s the little failures in life that lead to our best selves. One can not attain experience without failure or setback. We are all hard wired for good and bad…It’s human nature. Nobody is exempt.
We can’t send the message of one and done to our kids. They need to act out of courage and curiosity not fear.
From: Steve Krakauer
To: Billy Bush
Hey Billy-
I think that’s such a hugely important message – courage and curiosity, not fear. And in some ways, it makes me think of the duality of social media today. In some ways with social media, it gives new voices a platform – young, underrepresented voices. And that’s a really positive thing. In other ways, it seems to really power the engine of cancel culture. There’s the mechanism where an errant tweet from 10 years ago is dug up in an attempt to undermine a person. There’s the pile-on for a bad Instagram post. What do you think about social media – for adults, and for kids?
But I also wonder the role social media has played as you’ve observed celebrity culture. It wasn’t that long ago – maybe 10-12 years ago – where celebrities had no ability to control their own message. At least not in the way they do know, where instead of sitting down for an interview they can go on Instagram Live or something. How do you think celebrity culture has changed? And is there a person you point to and say – this person is really navigating this new world well?
It seems like there’s a lot more, uh, oversharing now too. Like – prominent figures, even pseudo-celebrities like journalists, feel almost a duty to share their opinions on basically everything now. That feels recent too. And where does this go next?
From: Billy Bush
To: Steve Krakauer
Well there’s different social media outlets and they all have a vibe right? Twitter is the most volatile and negative. My kids are not on it because it’s pseudo intellectual and not fun. I quit Twitter one month into my (2 month) Today Show job because people were so nasty….I was the new guy on the big network morning show and thus I stuck out too much. I’ve since rejoined but do not use it…Maybe one day I’ll find it useful.
Instagram is pictures and praise: “FLAWLESS ” my daughters friends say to every post. It’s a great place to build your self esteem or if you’re too into it, an inflated self perception. But harmless. Tik Tok is a blast and fun…I can get sucked in for hours, but try not to. There’s something called Triller but I don’t have the bandwidth to explore that.
But to the first part of your question, which is basically ‘does social media do more harm than good’? Twitter definitely more harm…”outrage” and controversy travel 10 times faster than anything fair or balanced or just newsy. All it takes is for a handful of influencers to retweet something nasty (often wrong or misleading) about you and it’s viral and you’re knee deep in crisis managers before you know it. We need a summit with all the top media execs where they ultimately sign a non-reactive, impunity pledge. If one of their employees gets attacked, wait at least a week and see if the mob (which again could be even a handful of fire starters) doesn’t move on to another target.
Celebrity use of Instagram has been great for them and terrible for our shows…the big ones know we’ll cover their posts. It’s basically them sending us their video the way THEY’D edit it. Nobody knew this better than the former host of The Celebrity Apprentice. Because of this phenomenon, there are so few NEW tv hosts and Journos…to come to tv, they’re coming for a specific person. I am grateful that this ultimately works in my favor.
A final point to make about social media as it relates to celebs is when the moment calls for a perfect post, striking the right tone, the pressure is immense. First, there is the pressure to post at all which shows you care, then the pressure to say the right thing. Not posting can be the worst because as they say, in the absence of information people go negative, ie they fill in the blanks as to that person’s intentions. For big celebs, better to have never engaged – Nicholson, Cruise, Pitt….nobody expects it so you’re good.
From: Steve Krakauer
To: Billy Bush
Hey Billy-
You mention the former host of The Celebrity Apprentice, who happens to, uh, have gone on to a new career path. Let me stay there for a minute, because obviously you and Trump are interconnected in ways I’m sure you’d prefer you weren’t. But you also do really have an insight into Trump that likely few others do. What are critics, and fans, missing about the real Trump?
Speaking of Twitter, you tweeted something…intriguing, a couple months ago, “As for tapes from the Apprentice, under suspicions and accusations that Trump was caught on camera using racial slurs and more, MGM has fought tooth n nail to keep the unseen footage from public and potentially prying eyes. And NBC? Had exec on set at all times.” Care to…expand?
Let’s end here – you’ve had a fascinating career, and a really interesting background. You’ve got family connections to the past Bush presidents, and media connections that run deep and through a variety of networks. I guess as you look out across the landscape right now, and where things stand in 2020… what do you think is missing? What would you like to see more of? And is there anything that gives you hope for the future and where we’re headed?
Thanks so much for doing this, really appreciate the time.
Steve
From: Billy Bush
To: Steve Krakauer
One thing of which you cannot accuse Trump is pretending to be someone he’s not. From the outset 5 years ago through today he has shown his true colors: a penchant for the zero sum game, a love for making things personal, a need for an enemy and an insatiable appetite for press. Have you ever known a person about whom we talked more? His greatest love is the media, probably Jim Acosta above all others. And ironically the network that despises him most is the one that built him in their laboratory back in 2002 with the launch of The Apprentice. The persona people voted for to fix America in a no nonsense tough-guy way was made and marketed by NBC. My how times change. In 2005 when he was making lots of profit for his network, protection wasn’t just guaranteed it was paramount. In 2016 there was no sacrifice too small or great to take down Frankenstein.
What’s missing is real independence in our media. If targeting a villain is important for cable news ratings and clicks, then how about making both parties the enemy. They both are robustly attended by deeply flawed, breathlessly pandering, shortsighted politicians for whom, it seems, winning the next fight is everything.
I am a true independent who doesn’t recognize either party today. I’m emailing with you because you seem fair to me, beholden to nobody…a good journalist and analyst.
I don’t SEE hope but I HAVE hope. My hope is the silent majority stops letting 5 people on Twitter unfairly influence events and ruin peoples’ lives. I hope that we stop letting the polar extremes dominate our politics and that we return to centrism. I hope we once again elect someone with an impressive resumé. I hope that when twitter calls for the head of someone whose done something we’re all capable of, we unfollow those people. Or ignore them. By staying quiet or squelching our opinions and beliefs, because the threat of the mob lurks, we are contributing to a nation of liars. We are denying our humanity. As humans, we are capable of incredible acts of love and genius but also hardwired for some pretty dark stuff…we know this. Let’s return to forgiveness and spirited, fearless discourse.
All the best,
BB